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May 11, 2009

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harry b

I might post on this... but I'll give away the thought now. I share your feelings. EXCEPT I disagree with 1). The issue is not that these kids are exceptional, it is that the exceptional kids are excluded. The problem is, if you like, not cream skimming, which is not really what is going on, but dregs-sifting, which is definitely going on (same as KIPP and all of the schools that beat the odds about which I know). Sifting out the most disruptive and difficult-to-deal with 10% or even 5% makes it very hard to evaluate these programs well, and in one sense impossible to scale them up. I haven't seen the Fryer study, so don't know how he deals with this, but I don't know of any sure-fire way of dealing with it, and nor do the folks I've asked about it.
None of this is a criticism of Canada, or KIPP, or what have you. Just of people who are too optimistic about what can be done in scaling.

laura

Season 4 of the Wire has a sociologist who comes into the urban schools and sets up a program aimed at the tough cases. In this ficticious reform, the tough case class actually does work and doesn't become a holding cell for delinquents. The regular students benefit from the absense of the tough cases, and the tough cases improve, too.

Were there any real-life programs like this, harry?

Amy P

"...locate birth certificates..."

Doesn't every school (even your neighborhood one) require a bit of hoop-jumping? Remember Wendy's residency issues?

"Sifting out the most disruptive and difficult-to-deal with 10% or even 5% makes it very hard to evaluate these programs well, and in one sense impossible to scale them up."

I was reading a book called "Lost at School" this spring (it's by the guy that wrote "The Explosive Child") and I have some concerns about "disruptive." Ross Greene thinks that schools have very poor disciplinary methods and to hear him tell it, a lot of bad behavior is a cry for help. Correctly interpreted, it means: I'm in sensory overload, this assignment is over my head, I don't understand what I'm supposed to be doing, etc. Greene goes pretty far with that (he says that kids behave when they can). I've also been reading Howard Glasser's stuff on "Transforming the Difficult Child," which is about positive reinforcement. Glasser says that "difficult" kids are often only noticed when they are acting out. I was reading another book yesterday that said that autistic children should get 8 positive reinforcements for every 1 negative reinforcement. I ask myself, do "disruptive" kids at school get 8 positive reinforcements for every 1 negative reinforcement? No way. At this point, I start wondering, do we have this the wrong way around? Is the kid disruptive, or is the school set-up disruptive?

harry b

I watched that, and wondered if they were drawing on something real, but haven't bothered to investigate. I'll ask.

I'm inclined to think Amy P is onto something. The question for me is whether institutions have the patience for the sort of intervention that would be required, even if they could figure out how to design it.

lindsey

My mom and one other teacher tried to implement the Glasser method at her middle school. She had support from the administration, but the parent reaction was mixed. Unfortunately, the parents that pitched a fit were the parents of the top achievers (because Glasser's method takes away competition, reserves A grades for beyond mastery of material, etc). They were the parents with the most school capital as it was, so they pretty much overturned my mom's efforts after she moved (a change up in administration did not help either). This was in a fairly affluent neighborhood, though, and perhaps those sorts of parents wouldn't be a problem elsewhere. To Glasser's credit, my mom saw big improvements in behavior, and noticeable improvements in understanding. And not negligible, she enjoyed that year of teaching much more.

Amy P

"They were the parents with the most school capital as it was, so they pretty much overturned my mom's efforts after she moved (a change up in administration did not help either). This was in a fairly affluent neighborhood, though, and perhaps those sorts of parents wouldn't be a problem elsewhere. To Glasser's credit, my mom saw big improvements in behavior, and noticeable improvements in understanding. And not negligible, she enjoyed that year of teaching much more."

That's interesting. Glasser says that a lot of difficult kids don't really even know what "good" behavior means, since nobody's ever pointed out to them when they're doing what they ought to be doing. I'm a very big fan of Glasser and I've been passing his stuff (and Greene's "The Explosive Child") along to my daughter's 1st grade teacher this spring.

Amy P

Doug,

This one's for you:

http://gothamschools.org/2009/05/08/just-how-gullible-is-david-brooks/

Elizabeth

I blogged about this too today:
http://www.halfchangedworld.com/2009/05/harlem-miracle.html

Here's the link to the underlying study:
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/files/hcz%204.15.2009.pdf

Doug

Brooks gave the wrong impression based on shallow referencing? Stop the presses!!

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